Ontario Rat 1 Review

I  never know what to ask for on my birthday. Most of the stuff I want is either too expensive (in other words, tools), or too complicated to tell someone else to buy for me (parts for projects). I mean, I guess theoretically I could tell Grandma that I wanted, "10 feet of 3/4" schedule 80 PVC pipe, with two 1/2" female threaded couplings.......and...........Oh, I could also use some black and green canvas micarta handle scales, the 1/4 inch thick ones, mind you, and be sure they are an inch and a half wide and, oh, about ten inches long would do..........no no no, Grandma, I said the canvas micarta. Can't you hear me? Yep, thats schedule 80. The pipe has it printed on the side. Not the schedule 40, that won't work. It needs to be schedule 80. Yeah, 3/4". No, that's refering to the inside diameter of the pipe. Oh, they sell it at Home Depot. Or Lowes. And don't forget the couplings..................." 

But somehow I can't bring myself to.

One thing I do ask for is books. There are always a few good books I wish that I owned, but whenever I get worked up enough to buy one I end up spending the money on whatever project I'm working on at the time. So there are always a few books I want, (ask what I got for Christmas).

My default, however is knives. I can always use more of those. So for my birthday (several months ago) I asked for some knives.  

Typical me. 

One of the knives I received was the Ontario Rat 1 folding knife. It has received critical acclaim for being one of the best budget folders out there, with good reason. For only 25$, it is certainly close to the top of the list in terms of value for the price. To take you to the end of the review at the beginning; I really like this knife. 

Now let's start at the beginning. 

Knife Specs:

Blade length: 3.5"

Knife Closed Length: 5"
Knife Open Length: 8.5"
Weight: 5oz
Lock: Linerlock
Handle: Nylon scales, with stainless liners
Steel: AUS 8 Stainless

Grind: Full Flat Grind

Blade:
This is your basic blade shape here. A simple three and a half inch full flat ground drop point with plenty of belly, straight edge, and fine point. Very simple, no frills or funny curves, just a basic utilitarian design. Everything you need, and nothing you don't. The full flat grind is very effective, and the blade gets nice and thin behind the edge. It cuts very well, and although it's not the best I have handled (hollow grinds are always better), it makes a pretty good slicer.

The grinds are crisp and clean, and no stray machining marks anywhere on this knife. Trust me, any marks or dings that may be visible in the pictures were caused by me banging it around. Out of the box it was flawless. Impressive, considering its price. 

The blade steel is Japanese AUS 8 stainless. It is a standard budget steel, and is very common on knives in this price range. In performance it is practically the same as its Chinese equivalent 8Cr13MoV, which is the other main budget steel. It takes a razor edge, holds it decently, and is easy to sharpen. I have experienced only minor chipping, which happened when stabbing and hacking through a rusty paint can. Quite understandable in my book. 

Tip strength is also superb. It is nice and thin at the tip, yet not too thin, hitting the sweet spot of strength and fine cutting power. It came out of my tip strength test with flying colors, making the 2x4s beg for mercy.

As far as rust goes, it has proved to be a good stainless. I do not wash or oil my pocket knives very often, and so far I have only seen two minuscule spots of rust on the blade. Which, now that I am thinking about it, I can't find anymore. Funny. Maybe I am remembering wrong. Either way, I count that very good for a stainless with the crazy high humidity like it is down here. 

Overall, I am very satisfied with the steel. 

Also on the blade is (I think etched) the Ontario Knife Company logo, as well as the model, the steel, and where it was made; Taiwan. No, this knife is not made in the USA. That may be a big deal to you, but it's not to me. I get driven crazy by all you people who exclusively buy USA made knives, and run from China made or in this case Taiwan made stuff like it was Kryptonite, as if all China made knives are crud made to be thrown away. Allow me to set y'all straight: you're darn wrong. 

It's a lot like racism really. There are good black people and bad black people, same as there are good white people and bad white people. And good and bad China manufactured knives. The trouble is when you write off a whole race because of a few bad folks, or a whole country because of a few bad knives. Unfortunately, like racism, the mindset is also passed down, done unconsciously, and is fed by ignorance. 

But, one of you might say, "Aren't almost all bad cheapo knives made in China?" Well, yes. Does that mean that China made knives are inherently bad? No. Then why are most of them bad? Because, Einstein, cheapo knives are made very cheaply, so they can be sold very cheaply. Guess what? To make a knife for low cost, you not only have to use cheap materials, but you must use cheap labor. People don't work for cheap in the US. They do in other countries. To produce a cheapo knife, for cheapo prices, they must go with cheapo labor. They can get that in China. That is why you wont find cheapo knives made in the US, because if they were, guess what: they wouldn't be cheap.

Then why are all USA made knives so good? Because they cost three times that of anything that comes out of other countries. At that price, they can afford to use better materials. Look, knife companies understand that most people love USA made knives. They are not moving out of the country by choice, but by necessity to keep the prices down. If this knife had been made in the USA, it would have cost double for the same performance. Yeah, I'll take the Taiwan made. 

Another interesting inconsistency is that many of those knife-racist people also swear by their I-Phones, which, incidentally, were also made in China.

Forcing myself to move on now.......

Handle and Ergonomics:

There's no mistaking it, this is a big folding knife. It is a full 5 inches long closed, for crying out loud. I don't care how big your hands are, there is no fear that the handle will be too short to accommodate them. My hands are somewhere between a large and an xtra large glove, and there is room for another finger or so at the end of the handle. Not that it looks or feels out-of-place large (this isn't one of Cold Steel's Espadas), but there is certainly a little extra room thrown in. Nothing wrong with that, just something to take note of. 

Unfortunately for those of you who don't like heavier knives, this one's weight is in proportion to its size. Coming in at a full 5 ounces, this is no ladybug. The liners are thick and solid, with no milling to help keep down the weight. Couple that with a large blade, over abundance of screws, and not-so-light nylon scales, and you have a bit of heft. Personally, I have no problem with that. I don't think this knife is too heavy to carry by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, I even regularly edc a full size Leatherman Sidekick multi-tool on a pocket clip. (why do you think people invented belts?) This knife is a tad heavy on pajama pants though. (not that I don't wear it on pajama pants, just that it weighs em' down more than, say, my Spyderco Cara Cara 2)

This knife isn't designed to be lightweight. It is a no nonsense knife designed to be tough and able to take a beating without breaking. That being said, I don't think it's overly heavy at all. Just be warned, if you are a fan of feather-weight edcs; this isn't one of them.

On the subject of ergonomics, I think this knife scores fairly high. Not a Spyderco high, but pretty good nonetheless. The main problem is going to be the position in which you prefer your clip. The handle is drilled and tapped for all four carry positions (which is another big plus for this knife), but due to the shape of the handle and the rather large clip, when it is in tip down position it gets in the way and causes a bit of discomfort. Not a huge amount, but enough to make it annoying. With the clip in tip up arrangement the problem is completely solved. I'm on the fence as to which carry position I prefer, I kinda go back and forth. Right now I think I favor tip down slightly more, and that's generally what I run on this knife. I just deal with the clip getting in the way a bit.

Otherwise the ergos are fairly good. The scales are rounded over nicely, with no hotspots. Choking up on the blade is doable, though not very comfortable, due to the lack of a forward finger choil. I don't understand why they didn't add one to this knife. There is plenty of room for a finger choil, and it would have greatly improved it. Oh well, you can't have everything. 

Due to the interesting shape where the blade meets the handle, when deployed there is a small thumb ramp, on which is some aggressive jimping. I have found it to be too aggressive, making my thumb sore after prolonged use. I would much prefer smaller or better shaped jimping, such as is on my Cara Cara 2 or the Kershaw/Emerson CQC series. Taken on the whole though, its a pretty comfortable knife in the hand.

The handle also includes a lanyard hole, although why you would want a lanyard on a knife like this is beyond me. The option is open if you want it though, so that's a plus.

Lanyard hole

Pocket Clip and Carry:

Despite its large footprint, the knife carries well. It is large yes, but not uncomfortable. The scales are textured enough to provide some grip, but not so much so that it tears up pockets or is difficult to pull out; exactly what one wants on a pocket knife. 

The clip is on the large side, taking up half of the handle. Not that taking up half the handle makes the clip inherently large, but when that handle is five inches long, well, the clip is a little on the large side. It isn't a deep carry, and while not a ton of the handle sticks out, it's not exactly discreet either. I have no problems with that; you may think differently. 

The clip is coated with a black paint like material, which as you can see does not hold up very well. I don't really mind that either, I think it gives the knife some character, although personally I would prefer a plain polished metal finish. Once again, you may think differently.

On the other hand, I really like this clip. It is easy to slide in, easy to slide out, and keeps the knife put in the meantime. There are no hang ups, and nothing for the lining of your pocket to catch on. It shows no signs of it losing tension either. The clip does everything I would desire it do.

Deployment and Lockup:

Deployment is one thing Ontario scored perfectly on this knife. Right out of the box, I was flicking it open with hardly any effort. And believe me, it's a joy to operate. I find myself snapping it open constantly, very much to the dismay of my family and friends (who for some reason get unreasonably nervous around a guy casually flicking open and shut a large razor sharp knife).

The detent is perfect, strong enough to keep the blade firmly in place when shut, but small enough to allow you to snap it open with minimal effort. Once past the detent the action is very smooth, courtesy of the phosphor bronze washers, all the way up until the lock bar snaps into position with a beautiful click.

The cut out around the thumb studs is not very large, but I have never had a problem deploying it. My thumb falls right where it is supposed to, and gets plenty of purchase on the thumb stud. No problems there. Not much to say about the studs themselves, they are the average deal that comes on 95% of all folders. They get the job done.

The blade is centered perfectly, with zero wobble in any direction. 

Now, as to lockup.........I might as well say right out there is a huge flaw in this liner lock. At some point I decided to try some spine whacks to test the lock's integrity, and at the first whack the lock failed. The lock bar slid right out of the blade ramp. Not even a hard whack either, this was a light one. I tried again, with the same disappointing result. Every time I hit the spine it closes. Every. Single. Time. Disappointing.  One radius hit just below the tang: same result. It fails. Wow. What a bummer. I really do not why know this linerlock is so weak. It engages fully, the liner is not thin, and the ramp isn't super angled or anything. It's unfortunate.

Otherwise the lockup is great. It engages easily, zero stick, it's not hard to disengage, and it has some small jimping on the lock bar. There is also a nice cut out to help access it. But you don't need me to tell you that all that good stuff with a weak lock is hardly better than a beautifully polished Ferrari with a bad transmission. A very good car, but with a pretty bad problem. 

Ok, well, it's not as bad as that, but doubtless it does detract a good deal from the knife.

Final Thoughts:

I might as well say right out, like I did at the beginning of the review, that I like this knife quite a bit. 

My first impressions were very, very good. It was big, solid, sharp, opened fast, and locked securely (or so I thought). It felt solid and reassuring in the hand. As I mentioned in my review of the Spyderco Byrd Cara Cara 2, I received the knives at the same time. Comparing them, which I couldn't help but do as I opened the other gifts from friends and family, did not turn out favorably for the Spydie. It only strengthened my already very favorable first impression. After edc-ing it exclusively for the last two months, I found that my initial impressions were very nearly correct. 

This is a very good pocket knife. For me, it is exactly what I want in an EDC folder. It is large, holds up to abuse, flicks open fast (the intimidation factor), holds a good edge, cuts well, and looks fairly nice. I'll admit, the design isn't what I'd call inspired, and it won't win any beauty contests, but I like it nonetheless. I appreciate things that don't look like much, but have got it where it counts. While I love a good looking knife, I also know that knives are tools. Tools are made to be used. Not to sit in a drawer and look pretty. You'll find that most of my knives don't look pretty. Because I use my tools.

As far as the weak lock, I won't disguise it from you that it took the knife down considerable in my estimation. It lost a whole Awesome Star on that account. However let's be careful not take it too far, because honestly, although I like to know that my lock is strong enough to hold under any amount of pressure, it's not really necessary. I can't think of any legitimate day to day use that would cause the lock to fail. Even my day to day operations. I mean, unless you are some sort of........... (what?) a serial killer (?) and make a practice of stabbing stuff on a day to day basis, your fingers should be perfectly safe. You simply don't need an uber strong lock for an everyday carry knife. So while the lock is definitely not up to par by my standards, I wouldn't totally discount this knife because of that. Matter of fact, out of all the reviews I've read on this knife (many), I'm the first to have even noticed this. 

Would I recommend this knife? Absolutely. For $25 on Amazon, I think this is a very good knife. I would recommend it to anyone looking for a solid edc. 

I give this knife four out of five Awesome Stars. If it wasn't for the lock, it would be five. 

This knife is available on Amazon.com most of the time for just under $25 dollars.
https://www.amazon.com/Ontario-8848-Folding-Knife-Black/dp/B0013ASG3E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496855113&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=ontario+rat+1&psc=1

I will also mention that there is a second version of this knife, known as the Rat 2. It is the same knife in all aspects except that it is a smaller version. If a 3.5" blade is too much for you (why oh why?!!?!!), then you will probably prefer that model. 

Spyderco Byrd Cara Cara 2 Review

I'm not a huge fan of lockback folders. Don't get me wrong, it is a good, solid locking mechanism, and they work very well. But I don't like em. Why? Well, for one, they are more difficult to open. They don't spring open like most liner or framelocks. The locking mechanism puts tension on the blade, and prevents it from flipping open quick. Secondly, and most important, they are much more difficult to close one handed. You have reposition your hand on the knife several times, or use something else, like your leg, to help it shut. It may not be a big deal for a lot of people, and you get used to it, but I'm a practical guy. I'm all for function. Why would you put it on a knife if it doesn't function as well as a liner or framelock?

I have heard that is strength. Lockbacks are strong locks. There is no danger of the stop sliding out of the blade ramp on a lockback. Once it's locked, it stays locked. Some versions, such as Cold Steel's Triad lock, are strong enough to hold under hundreds of pounds, something that many liner or framelocks couldn't do. So there are some pros and cons for all of them. Regardless, personally lockbacks are not my favorite. 

I got this knife, the Spyderco Byrd Cara Cara 2, mainly because it is touted all over the Internet and knife forums as being extremely high value for the money. Naturally, as a red blooded knife loving eternally broke dude, that spoke to me. It is also not only a good budget blade, but a Spyderco. Spyderco knives have become rather legendary for their high quality folders and unique but perfect blade and handle shapes. I have heard so much about this company that I just had to get one of their knives in my hand, to discover what it was all about.

But guess what, this knife is a lockback. I'm already biased! 

Specs:

Overall: 8.5

Blade: 3.75

Closed: 4.75

Handle material: Injection molded FRN, (Fiberglass Reinforced Nylon) with stainless liners.

Lock: Lockback

Weight: 3.4 oz

Steel: 8Cr13MoV 

Blade:

Spyderco knows how to make good cutting blades. With its full flat grind, this knife is a beautiful slicer. It made short work of the paper and cardboard I put it through, gliding through all of it with ease. In the kitchen too it excelled, cutting apples, onions, tomatoes, etc; it really does a great job. The 8Cr13MoV steel takes a razor edge, and holds it fairly well. I haven't had much experience with this steel, but it seems to hold up well, and it is pretty standard for cheaper folders. Almost the whole Byrd line uses that steel, as well as many of CRKT's knives, even including a number of their more expensive offerings. Kershaw uses it on quite a few of their folders as well. I have been told that it's performance is pretty much the same as the Japanese AUS 8 steel, which is the other big budget knife steel. Overall, I am satisfied with its performance.

One thing I am not satisfied in was the tip. The tip of this knife is rather weak. I tried sticking the tip into a 2x4 and prying a bit, (my standard tip strength test) and it immediately bent. Now, I'm not talking about sticking the thing half an inch in and putting all my weight on it. That is understandable. No, I just stuck the tip in, not deeper than an eighth of an inch, and applied some light pressure. It instantly bent. I pushed the other direction, and it bent back. I tried several times, with the same result. This isn't, I don't think, a problem with the hardness of the steel, but with how thin the blade is at the tip. It is how the blade is designed. Now, it's not a huge deal for a lot of people to have a super strong tip on their pocket knife. After all, most pocket knives are only used for cutting open boxes, opening letters, and slicing up the occasional apple. I think it is safe to say that this knife wasn't designed to take any hard use. It's more of a lightweight gentleman's knife. For those purposes, a thin tip is more important than a strong tip. 

But not for me. I want my knives to be strong. And that is not an impossible thing to ask for in a folding knife around this price. I tried the same test with my Ontario Rat 1, and it passed with flying colors. Absolutely no bending. 

I really like that Rat. 

On the plus side however, the blade shape is pure awesomeness. It takes a little getting used to, being a bit out of the ordinary, but it performs wonderfully. I can see what makes Spyderco knives so popular. It has the perfect balance of straight edge, belly, and fine tip for an EDC. I have really enjoyed using it.

Handle:

The scales, as before mentioned, are made of injection molded FRN, otherwise known as fiberglass reinforced nylon. FRN is cheap, lightweight, and strong. They are reinforced by stainless steel liners, which you can just barely see inside the handle. The liners are skeletonized to keep it light, and indeed, lightweight is what this knife is all about. 

There is a very aggressive texture on the scales, which make it very difficult to lose your grip on the knife. Not sure why they are textured so much, as it is really unneeded on a folder like this. Nothing wrong with it, just unneeded.

Unfortunately, there is a bit of play between the blade and liners, and the blade is not centered correctly. I can also feel some play in the lock when I am pushing down on something hard. Nothing extremely bad, but I expected better from a knife with this reputation. This knife's closest competitor, (in my opinion anyway) the Ka-bar Dozier folder (which is the same price, a lockback, and also has FRN scales) has none of this play. 

Gap between blade and scale

Blade not centered correctly

On the plus side once again though, the lockup is solid. It opens with a beautiful resounding click that feels so good. There is just something indescribably enjoyable about opening a well machined lockback. 

Rough spots in finish ^^^

On the down side again, I really don't the handle materials. I don't like FRN. At all. It simply feels cheap and weak, despite that it is actually pretty strong. It looks cheap too. And there are some unfinished spots in the scales that do not add to the looks. Trust me, the pictures make it look nicer than in reality.

To be blunt, I would prefer just about anything else on a handle than this stuff. I can understand the  reason to use it, after all; it's strong, cheap, and very lightweight. I just don't like it. 

I'm not crazy about lightweight knives. I like to feel some heft. Knives with weight to them feel solid and dependable. Its mental, yes, but still. 

I am prone to look down on knives designed around lightweight-ness.

Deployment:

I was rather interested when getting this knife how I would like Spyderco's trademark hole in the blade for deployment. As I'm sure you noticed, this knife does not have a thumbstud. Instead, you use the comet shaped hole in the blade to flick it open. Well, it works. That's about all I have to say about it. It's not anything amazing, and I don't know that it is an improvement over the thumbstud or not. It really seems about the same to me. It is a little rough on your thumb, I can say that. The punched edge of the hole is a bit sharp, and at first it made my thumb a little sore. Nothing a little sandpaper couldn't fix, if you wanted too. And my thumb is calloused now.

Like most lockbacks, the deployment is a bit slow. You aren't going to flicking this knife open like it was an assisted or anything. That's just the way it is with lockbacks. There are no washers between the blade and liners either, to facilitate faster opening. If this knife were not a lockback, I'm sure I would enjoy the comet hole more. 

I don't know. There isn't much special about this knife as far as deployment. Its fairly normal. Nothing to write home about.

Pocket carry and clip:

This knife has all four clip mounting points, which is very nice. Whether you are a lefty, or just prefer tip up carry, this knife will work for you. 

When I received it, I switched it from tip up (what it came with) to tip down carry. I did this for two reasons. Number one is that I am simply more used to tip down, as all my other folders have it. Number two, and most importantly, the jimping on the thumb ramp was constantly catching on the edge of my pocket, and I had to work a little to get it to go in. After a few times I was done messing with it and switched it around. Like I said, I am practical. I like function. It wasn't functioning well tip up.

I have a bit of the same problem though, with it tip down, however on the opposite side. Now the jimping will catch a bit on the inside of the pocket, making it a bit harder to pull it out. It's not that bad,  but it is tearing up the lining on the edge of the pocket, as you can see.

Jimping rips the lining of pocket

The clip functions very well, it is very smooth slipping in and out is the pocket, and there are no hang ups as with clips on some of my other knives. It has a nice tension, and hasn't loosened up any. It functions very well. It looks classy too, I love the polished finish.

On the subject of the FRN scales, as you can see the back of the handle where it rubs against my flashlight has gotten a bit damaged. I'm a bit surprised, as I thought the stuff was a harder than that. Another reason I don't like FRN.

Ergonomics:

The ergos on this knife are extremely well thought out. The placement of the jimping, as well as all the finger grooves and curves in the handle are simply perfect. You can't hold this knife in an uncomfortable position, whether you are choking up on the blade, holding it lower down, or even upside down in a stabbing position. The handle and blade shapes look funny in the pictures, to be sure, but once it is in your hand you absolutely love it. I know now why Spyderco is so popular. Their knives are awesome in the hand. If the handle was a bit thicker, or was made of better materials, I think it would be extremely difficult to beat. They got the shape down perfect.

Final thoughts:

I have to admit, when I first received this knife, I wasn't very impressed. It didn't help that I got this knife at the same time as my Ontario Rat 1, which, to be frank, looks and feels a 100% nicer than this one; for about the same price. The Rat also is a linerlock, flicks open super fast, has a great heft, and a very strong tip. If I were to compare the two, the Rat would win without a second of hesitation. But I won't compare them, because they are really in separate categories. The Cara Cara 2 is designed to be an inexpensive, very lightweight, lighter duty pocket knife. It hardly weighs anything, while still being large and fairly strong, and functions superbly well at everyday cutting tasks. (cutting boxes, opening envelopes, halving a sandwich, forcing entry into those terribly defiant plastic packages, etc) It does not function well, nor is it designed to on more difficult cutting tasks.

It is just not built tough enough for me. 

My Dad is a contractor. (which means, of course, that I am a contractor's apprentice/slave, haha) I work with him all the time, usually once or twice a week. (We are also presently constructing a workshop in the backyard as well) Construction is tough work. You need a knife that can stand up to abuse. Contractors don't wear expensive pocket knives. They use five dollar box cutters with disposable blades, for good reason: they get destroyed. 

I also am out in the woods a lot, and enjoy doing simple bushcraft type crafts. I need a knife that has a strong tip for many of these. This knife has a weak tip, wouldn't, I don't believe, stand up to a lot of those.

To get right down to it, when I put on a knife, I need to know that it is tough enough to handle any tasks that I may be faced with in the course of my day. I just don't feel that way with this knife.

Now don't get me wrong, this is a decent blade. For the cost of $20, it is very nice. For a lot of people, who don't do the kind of activities I do, it would make a great lightweight EDC folder. Its just not for me. I'll wear it when I know I won't be doing any kind of tough activities, around the house, or to church for example, but when I'm going out to the woods or to work, I generally leave it in the drawer. 

And, to be brutally honest, I think there are better (definitely tougher) knives to be had for that price. To name a few, the Ontario Rat 1, which I own, is available on Amazon most of the time for a tad under $25. It is superior to this knife in just about every aspect. I have also heard amazing things about the CRKT Drifter, which is the same price and steel, but appears to be constructed out of better materials. The scales are G10, it has beefer stainless liners, and is a liner lock, which you know I prefer. There are also several Kershaw assisted opening folders in this price range, such as the renowned Cryo. I could go on to name several others, but you get my point. For myself at least, this is not my first choice for a twenty dollar folding knife. 

However, if you are looking for a budget priced, very ergonomic lightweight pocket folder, with impressive cutting power and fine point, for lighter duty around the home or office; this is a very viable contender. There are a lot of folks out there who really love this knife, and I can see why. 

If you fit the qualifications listed above, I don't think you will be disappointed. This knife has grown on me, and I find that it's in my pocket much more often than I thought it would be. 

I'm only giving this knife 3 out of 5 awesome stars. I almost feel guilty only giving it three, because it really is a good knife, but I have to remind myself what it could be. It has a weak tip, the lock has a bit of play when I push hard on it, and there is too much play between blade and liners. If it wasn't for those, I would award it 5. 

This knife is available on Amazon.com right now for $20.

Buy on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Cara2-Black-PlainEdge-Knife/dp/B0049AYJP4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488906262&sr=8-1&keywords=byrd+cara+cara+2

I will also mention that Spyderco makes another version of this knife with G10 scales, big stainless liners, and much improved, well, just about everything on the handle. I don't own it as of yet, but from other reviews and pictures I think I would like it a whole lot more, and it would solve a lot of the problems that come with this model. However, it is priced at a little over $10 more than this one. Whether or not it is worth $30 is a question that I don't know the answer to (yet). You might want to check it out though.